Cor Bon vs Federal HST expansion test (yes, another video.)

[Stradawhovious]

Went to the range, and after spring cleanup on the pistol side, Vlad and I decided to test the expansion of our carry ammo. Here are the results, in high budget, hollywood style, professional production, produced and directed by Sam Raimi. (well, not really.)

[AgAuTHORITY]

Thanks for posting that, pretty neat. Going to have to try that for myself.

[Belgiboy]

Very nice. Shooting stuff under the pretense of scientific data collection for the purpose of bettering mankind... God I love America

[Rev. Dead Corpse]

I'm assuming everyone has already seen this website?

[JFettig]

How many jugs did each go through?

Where were the fragments found from the corbon bullets?


Jon

[Stradawhovious]

In the video it states that both bullets were found in the 4th jug, and the fragments from the Cor Bon were found in all 4 jugs, although the jacket itself was found in the 3rd. All jugs used were of the 1 gallon variety.

[Vlad]

Both of the slugs wound up in the 4th gallon. The Cor Bon’s lead core was in the last jug, the main part of the jacket was in the 3rd gallon and found a few fragments of the jacket on the table.

Edit, did not mean to step on Dan's post. Started to answer and got pulled away and then hit send with out looking.

[Holland&Holland]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. What conclusions did you come to? My intial reaction would have been that the Federal HST performed better and would be the better choice but yesterday I read an interesting article on the subject of expansion, retention, and penetration in the latest issue of Sports Afield that I am still trying to digest. This article may suggest (like I said I am still mulling it over and will likely reread a number of times before I form an opinion) that my thinking is flawed. Would be very interested in what yours and others thoughts are about effectivness of both rounds in a personal protection scinerio.

I love balistics so interested to see where discussion goes on this topic.

[Vlad]

In my un scientific mind, I am switching to the HSTs because I did not like how the CorBon came apart. The other thing that was not apparent in the pics was that the HST was almost ¾ an inch in diameter while the CorBon was just barely larger than caliber. Do I have any doubt that a BG would be seriously hurt by the CorBon, No. IMHO both bullets would cause the recepient to cease functions in a very timely manner. I have also done an informal poll of some LEO that I know and the majority are carrying the HSTs. That is really the primary driving force behind me changing. That and the slug is just cool as all get out!

[Stradawhovious]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. What conclusions did you come to?

You're welcome, and believe me when I say this..... The pleasure was all mine. I guess I wasn't necessarily tring to come to a conclusion, just wanted to see the difference in expansion and retention. There are obvious differences, but as Vlad pointed out, both will more than likely get the job done.

I'm really interested in seeing how the HSTs respond to layers of denim like the "boxotruth" test. They couldn't seem to get any hollow point rounds to expand when fired through 3 layers of denim, but the HST was not one of the rounds tested. Sounds like a good test for the next range trip.

[Holland&Holland]

In my un scientific mind, I am switching to the HSTs because I did not like how the CorBon came apart. The other thing that was not apparent in the pics was that the HST was almost ¾ an inch in diameter while the CorBon was just barely larger than caliber. Do I have any doubt that a BG would be seriously hurt by the CorBon, No. IMHO both bullets would cause the recepient to cease functions in a very timely manner. I have also done an informal poll of some LEO that I know and the majority are carrying the HSTs. That is really the primary driving force behind me changing. That and the slug is just cool as all get out!

I would tend to agree with you though the article I was reading was of the opinion that we (generalzation for the hunting public) have been too concerned with wieght retention and pentration when the goal is the quickest kill possible. His point that some hunters use bullets on deer that are really designed for denser game and even though we get great penetrarion and weight retention that actual distance the animal travels before it dies is longer than with more rapildly expanding bullets that are made more for deer and typicaly are not "premium" bullets.

Now here is my line of thought on this (trust me I do have a point ), us people are not really as dense as deer and so in the typical close range scinero would a more fragmenting bullet cause more damage and therefore kill quicker than a high weight retention, good penetration through and through?

Now I am not saying I subscribe to this (in fact with what is currently in my carry gun would be more on the penetration, high weight retention camp) but courious as to what the thoughts are on this.

Main reason I had to ask was I watched the video and said "well of course I would choose the HST" but then I got thinking about this and said "which one really is better for this situation?" Very interesting topic I think.

[sochr000]

I have also done an informal poll of some LEO that I know and the majority are carrying the HSTs.

Yep, Bemidji PD uses only these now, they used to use a crap shoot of 9mm JHP rounds, but have since gone with Federal Tactical Premium.

[monschman]

Hmm I have some EFMJ rounds that I want to see firsthand in expanded material maybe something like what you guys did is in my immediate future. If anyone else wants to participate in this kind of study I am sure with some discussion we could make a day out of it. We could check out PP rounds, hunting rounds etc. I dont believe water to be the best option to provide the most realistic ballistic material but I am sure if anyone wanted to donate a cooler large enough I can dig up a reasonable ballistic gelatin recipe on the naked lady machine. Of course all results would be posted here for all to see, also i do have a couple of expired ballistic vests that I want to try out (not firsthand, but strapped to clay or some other medium) Sorry for hijacking your thread Strad but this is something I have wanted to do for a while and your video has prompted me to get up off my a$$ and actually do something about it. If anyone wants in, p.m. me and we can make a start on the details
Don

[sochr000]

if you find a ballistics gel recipe that works well, you should post that also, I'd go test it myself, but I work too much as it is to make it to the range all that often.

[JFettig]

H&H, do you have a link to the article?

The reason that a bullet that holds together is better is that it retains its weight all the way through for a bigger punch and more cavitation. Cavitation is key. HST bullets open up real quick and stay opened and cavitate real nicely.
I can imagine that the Corbon bullets open up, made a nice big shallow cavitation and then continued with small cavitation through the rest of the way.

Those EFMJ bullets are worthless unless your stuck with FMJ. I've shot some into ballistic gel, they flatten out and only increase in size just a little bit. They do create cavitation but not much, definitely more than a regular FMJ which doesn't create any unless you somehow get it to tumble(they usually don't).

Those .45 HST bullets in bare gel usually open up between 3/4-1" I have a couple real big ones.
Every time I've fired HST through denim, it opened up nicely, not quite as nicely because the cavity is full of denim, but still very good.
I'd be willing to bet that those corbon bullets would shred if shot through auto glass, even HST doesn't look that great(still better than most others).

I have some 9mm Barnes expanders, if you guys do this again but shoot through barriers, I'd be interested in seeing how they do.


Jon