Registering an NFA weapon [inc Suppressors] via trust

[MJY65]

Not having access to WestLaw, I have no idea either. Google doesn't turn up anything concrete, but I'm sure it's happened. If a trust is the owning entity, and it becomes invalid or prohibited to own firearms, whoever is in physical possession of the NFA firearms is in trouble. There's just no way around that.


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That would certainly be a problem. What I'm trying to research is what the next step would be. Legal documents, even those prepared by an attorney, can be incorrect and require revision. Would ATF give a certain time period for the trust to be revised? Require the devices to go back to the dealer and re-apply? Throw everyone concerned in jail? I have no idea, but would like to know before taking a suppressor into my house.

BTW: I'm not advocating having a dealer apply for the trust or using Quicken. I did mine with one of the many NFA attorneys that offer this service for anywhere between $99-$199. If one already has a will to handle other matters, it may not be necessary to start from scratch.

[jshuberg]

It can't go back to the dealer without another form 4 transfer.

They might allow a lawyer to implement a paperwork fix, maybe not. If they are specifically targeting someone for some reason, they'll use any little thing to go after them on. I don't think there's any one consistent answer.

My recommendation is to use a lawyer who specializes in NFA trusts. There was an ex-cop in New York who had his firearms seized because having prescription sleeping pills was considered to be a "mental illness" and made him a prohibited person. It's not unreasonable to think that someone at some time might go over your trust looking for ways to screw you. If they do, having it done right will be very important.

It's really not that big a deal to have one done right, and then you know if anyone comes sniffing around your guns and your trust, that it's all in order. It's one of those things that worth having done right out of an abundance of caution.


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[MJY65]

My recommendation is to use a lawyer who specializes in NFA trusts.

That's the route I chose. I figured an attorney that has done a few hundred is better than someone local who is new to this. Everything but the notary signature was handled via the Internet. Easy as it gets.

[jshuberg]

Honestly, I think you might be sweating this more than you need you. Yes, there is the potential that someone might look at your trust to make sure everything is legal. However, unless you pop up on BATFE's radar for some reason, the likelihood of this is pretty low. Even then, as long as your paperwork is in order you should be just fine.

Trusts are a pretty simple legal document. Adding in the wording to handle various NFA considerations is also pretty straightforward. If a lawyer decides to specialize in this area, they're going to get it right, that shouldn't be a concern. Doing it yourself though, or relying on legal advice from gun store sales staff could get you in trouble. It's like a lot of other things in life that are best left to professionals.

I've got several NFA items in my trust, including a machine gun. The first time building an SBR I was pretty nervous about the process. I've helped around a dozen people through the process over the years. Yes, there are legalities to deal with, but there are hundreds of thousands of people out there who have gone through the registration process without any hint of a problem. Just dot your i's and cross your t's and you'll be ok. Everyone is nervous and anxious about their first NFA purchase.

It sounds like did the right thing, and had a trust put together for you by a professional. Your dealer will help you with the other paperwork and forms, so you should have nothing at all to worry about.


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[shooter115]

Looks like using a trust to register NFA items, just lost a big chunk of its appeal.
http://reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201504&RIN=1140-AA43

[MJY65]

Looks like using a trust to register NFA items, just lost a big chunk of its appeal.
http://reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201504&RIN=1140-AA43

Hasn't been enacted yet, but could be at the end of the year. Not a done deal.

[jshuberg]

This has been out there in at least 3 different forms since 2011. Never going to happen.

[MJY65]

This has been out there in at least 3 different forms since 2011. Never going to happen.

I actually tried to read about and understand the rule making process. I gave up. Even after reading the official process, I have no idea what is really required for them to try to move this forward. I'm just glad it's stuck for now.

[Collector1337420]

A Trust definitely seems the way to go. It doesn't look like any of these new rules they want to have are going anywhere.

I just got my trust and am going to eFile my Form 1 this week.

I'm still wondering about the "overall length" question. Whether that's with the stock collapsed or extended...

I would think collapsed... as that makes it shorter and I would think they want to know the shortest it can be.

I'm asking again because I've heard both from so many sources I don't know what to believe...

Also, it's going to be for a .300 Blackout. I've heard you need to put all of the calibers that you might put on your SBR lower, so in addition to .30 caliber, you'd want to put 5.56, .22lr, etc...

But then I've heard, you only need to put the main caliber in my case, .300, and you can still put any upper you want on your SBR lower...

Anyone have any insight on this?

Also... do I need to include my Schedule A if I don't have any stamps yet? It would just be blank as I don't have an SBR or suppressor yet.

[jshuberg]

OAL is with stock collapsed. It can be longer than what is reported, but if you ever change the configuration where the OAL is shorter, BATFE wants to receive a letter describing the change in configuration. There's no specific form for this, just a letter describing the change, and you don't need to wait for a response from them either. In the extremely unlikely scenario where you are questioned about the OAL of your weapon being shorter than what's on your registration form, just keep a copy of the letter you sent and proof of mail receipt at BATFE.

If the stock folds, like an under-folding AK, I was told to measure OAL with the stock unfolded. While it might be possible to fire it with the stock folded, it's a rifle with a stock, and should be measured with the stock in the position where it can be shouldered.

Again though, they have changed their minds on things in the past, so a call to the NFA branch is always a good idea if you have any questions.


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[george]

Jest want to update in case someone wants to do a SBR, OAL is with stock extended.
Instruction J from ATF form 1 page 8 Jest in case. also resurrecting a quiet thread.
https://www.atf.gov/file/11281/download

[Deputyhiro]

Extended? Thought it was collapsed? Makes more sense for them to want to document smallest configuration.

[george]

Extended? Thought it was collapsed? Makes more sense for them to want to document smallest configuration.

It makes no sense but it's on the app. directions. go figure Of course it's more likely the barrel length of most concern.

[2in2out]

Can we get this thread moved to the Suppressors section? As more people are becoming interested in purchasing suppressors, I think this thread is going to become even more useful.

Thanks to JShuberg for sharing so much of his knowledge!



BTW, Ttousi, I did send you a PM, but it's still sitting in my outbox and that's why I asked in the thread (besides getting it bumped to the top)

[atomic41]

This has been out there in at least 3 different forms since 2011. Never going to happen.

I hope you are right but I'm nervous about it and the latest update from Prince Law doesn't look good:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/12/19/at ... ll-failed/

I haven't been able to pull together cash for the two NFA items I want, a SBR and suppressor for a .300 blk build. I've been collecting components but can't buy the NFA items for a few more months. So, let's assume that 41P doesn't go our way and CLEO sign off is required. Does anyone know if Mpls. is NFA friendly or will I be screwed and not able to get a signature? Has anyone here had Mpls. CLEO sign off ok? Also, is the only change here that a trust can't bypass CLEO sign off or are there other changes? I'm trying to figure out if I should open a trust this last week of the year and submit paperwork for a SBR before the potential change in Jan.