Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

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Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby Seismic Sam on Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:50 pm

As you may know, I have made some posts on cleaning range brass by boiling it in water and two squirts of lemon juice. While this initially looked like the way to go across the board, I had problems with 9mm brass sticking in the carbide size die and bending or tearing the rims off.

Since then, I have done some additional work, and thought I would post the results. To begin with, let's compare the tradition method of brass processing and the boiling water and lemon juice method:

EDIT!! After boiling my cases with water and lemon juice, I DO rinse them in plain water to remove any lemon juice residue.

With the traditional method, you pick up the range brass, and unless it's rained, it's fairly clean but may have some tarnish on it from powder residue in the chamber. If it's caked with mud from a rain, it's best to wash it off before you put it in the tumbler, or you'll just add that much more dirt to your tumbler media. Hopefully you are leaving the fired primers in the case, because picking walnut shells out of the firing pin hole is a major PITA. Then you put the cases in the tumbler, and after 5 - 10 hours or overnight if you forget, the cases come out nice and shiny. Then if it's a straight walled case, you run it through the carbide size die. Now, when you do this, there is microscopic residue on the shiny case from the tumbling that actually acts as a lubricant in the die, but the particles get smeared along the case during resizing, so they get LESS shiny than they were when they came out of the tumbler. The picture below shows pairs of cases, with the left case being a resized boiled lemon juice case, and the right case being a tumbled and sized case.

Image

Now, with cases processed with the boiling method, you dump in the cases into the boiling water and lemon juice, and magic happens before your eyes almost instantly. The cases become factory fresh and shiny as long as they are being boiled, but then when you drain them and wash off the residual lemon juice they get less shiny after they are dried. Still, they are really clean, and when you run them through a carbide size die they actually get MORE shiny because of the polishing action of the carbide on the brass case wall. Now, with 45 ACP brass there is no downside, and the cases resize just fine. I suspect the same is true for 38/357 and the 44's and 45's. With any necked rifle or pistol case (like .223 or 357 Sig) you have to lubricate the cases anyway, so resizing those is just the same as doing tumbled brass.

The one problem that comes in is resizing 9mm brass, and the boiled brass definitely resizes harder than the tumbled brass. Now, some of you may have noticed that 9mm brass resizes a hell of a lot harder than a 38 Special or 45 ACP brass, which always seemed strange to me. It has finally dawned on me why this is so, as the 9mm case is one of the few that is TAPERED. That means that the mouth of the case is a smaller diameter than the base of the case, so when you reize it the case is essentially getting resized TWICE in one press stroke. That's also why 9mm carbide cases are a lot more expensive, because they are not just a simple carbide ring that just sizes the whole case to a constant diameter. So you need a longer piece of carbide, and you also neet to grind the taper into the carbide, which is a bunch more work and thus costs more.

Now, with 9mm cases boiled in water and lemon juice, the cases are REALLY clean. You can resize several hundred cases, and your thumb and forefinger of your case grabbing hand will stay clean, as opposed to the black fingertips you get with several hundred tumbled cases. Unfortunately, if you do the resizing step like you normally do, which is ram the case into the die, and then haul it back out with a nearly continous press stroke, the 9mm case rims can suffer and or a case can get stuck in the die with the rim torn off. It should be noted that this is also dependent on how powerful the load was, and with mild loads the 9mm cases may still resize just fine. With "Tim Warner" 9mm loads, however, the case can go into the die extremely hard.

The fix I have found found for this, which is not perfect, but does work, is to push the 9mm case up into the die, and depending on how hard the sizing pressure is, wait from 1-4 seconds until you pull the case out with a firm and steady pressure. If you do this, you can get 99+% of the cases out of the die with the rim intact. This definitely makes the resizing step more tedious, and you'll have to decide for yourself if it's worth it to do it this way rather than spend time tumbling your brass. Obviously, this treatment won't work with a Dillon press at all in 9mm, but with 38/44/45 cases it will probably be just fine.

As far as my own viewpoint, I'm willing to do this to get selected headstamp cases (Win, FC, R-P, and PMC) into my case stash, and from there on out my 9mm loads tend to be on the mild side, so resizing will be fairly easy, and I may not choose to clean my brass every time with my own handloads.

In general, boiling cases in water and lemon juice when you get back from brass picking is a good idea, because you are getting the most crud off your cases at the top end of your reloading cycle. That's worth something right there. For a variety of straight walled and most bottleneck cases, this case cleaning method is far quicker than taking the 6 hour tumbler route, and doesn't have any downside. For 9mm cases, it will depend on how you reload and what the strength of your reloads are to decide whether this method is for you.
Last edited by Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby mzdadoc on Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:12 pm

Sam my question that came to mind is what is your true goal for your brass? I am not nor do I claim to be a veteran reloader. Is it all for the shiny pretty new factory load look or to prevent any gunk getting into to your firearm via your reloads. Why not just use CLR or one of those fast cleaners? Why not boil first then tumble for better function and carbide longevity and if pretty is your goal then tumble again after loaded?

I may have totally missed your whole reasoning for this so if I did I would really be interested in knowing more. You can never learn to much about reloading!!!!
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby Seismic Sam on Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:09 pm

Boiling is 15 minutes. Tumbling can be 6 hours or more, plus you need the tumbler and a seperator and media, and on top of all that getting all the media out of .223 cases is a PITA. Simple reduction of work needed and equipment, by about a factor of 10. For better than 25 years I had no tumbler at all, and just reloaded and shot my 9mm and 45 ammo, plus other calbers as time came along. So shiny isn't an absolute requirement, but it's a nice to have if you have the time and money. Longer term, I want to be able to store my cases in top condition in case Obammy is in office for another 4 years, and have the stuff load-ready, or have it looking good so I can get top dollar for it if we have another ammo famine, which is almost a certainty if Obama gets re-elected. As a matter of fact, the famine has already started, and you cannot order a new Ruger firearm FOR THE REST OF THIS YEAR!
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Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby mzdadoc on Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:28 pm

Kinda what I thought but wasn't really sure. Saving time is a big part I understand but since I only load 9 right now I don't mind. I'm planning on getting a rifle for my son and I just can't decide 223 or 308. I can see that getting down in a shell like that could totally be a PITA. thank you for the info and follow up!
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby OldmanFCSA on Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:59 am

You guys really do need to try the Stainless Steel Pin cleaning process.

If you haven't heard of it - do a search - we have discussed it many times.

Biggest complaint was drying cases after tumbling, or cost of Thumlers Tumbler Model B if you didn't already have one, and the media initial cost (which lasts forever).

Drying time is easy if done correctly, a little experimenting helps for your needs.

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Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby mzdadoc on Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:11 pm

OldmanFCSA wrote:You guys really do need to try the Stainless Steel Pin cleaning process.

If you haven't heard of it - do a search - we have discussed it many times.

Biggest complaint was drying cases after tumbling, or cost of Thumlers Tumbler Model B if you didn't already have one, and the media initial cost (which lasts forever).

Drying time is easy if done correctly, a little experimenting helps for your needs.

I'm done.



Huh! Never heard of it so I guess it's time to google and learn something new. Truthfully though I don't load rifle yet so I'm happy with my standard tumbler but enjoy learning new ways.
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Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby mzdadoc on Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:24 pm

Just read a great article on it. Wow!!!
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby LarryFlew on Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:09 pm

+1 on loss of lubrication. 10% of my 9mm ended up like the picture shown below after doing the wash. Didn't want to start over so I did a batch with just hot water and the juice. Almost as clean but same lube problem. Then Sprayed some one shot into the batch coming up next for loading and no more problem. However being one shot is a bit spending for doing all your 9mm brass I'm going to try the wash and couple hour tumble next so it should still be cleaner in shorter time and hoping 2 hour tumble puts the lube quality back.
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Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby JoeH on Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:23 pm

What if you added a little vegetable oil to the water? Would that give you that little lube back?


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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby bulletproof on Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:34 pm

LarryFlew wrote:+1 on loss of lubrication. 10% of my 9mm ended up like the picture shown below after doing the wash. Didn't want to start over so I did a batch with just hot water and the juice. Almost as clean but same lube problem. Then Sprayed some one shot into the batch coming up next for loading and no more problem. However being one shot is a bit spending for doing all your 9mm brass I'm going to try the wash and couple hour tumble next so it should still be cleaner in shorter time and hoping 2 hour tumble puts the lube quality back.


Are you talking about stainless steel polishing with lemishine? I've had zero issues with that method. It's like buying factory new brass.
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:02 am

LarryFlew wrote:+1 on loss of lubrication. 10% of my 9mm ended up like the picture shown below after doing the wash. Didn't want to start over so I did a batch with just hot water and the juice. Almost as clean but same lube problem. Then Sprayed some one shot into the batch coming up next for loading and no more problem. However being one shot is a bit spending for doing all your 9mm brass I'm going to try the wash and couple hour tumble next so it should still be cleaner in shorter time and hoping 2 hour tumble puts the lube quality back.


Okay, do the bands on the top half of the case mean that you were only able to get part of the case into the die?? Or is this the effect from a Lee factory crimp die after the ammo was loaded??
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby LarryFlew on Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:05 am

Seismic Sam wrote:
Okay, do the bands on the top half of the case mean that you were only able to get part of the case into the die?? Or is this the effect from a Lee factory crimp die after the ammo was loaded??


During bullet seating which has never happened in many thousands of rounds before this. 10 in 100. Exactly same quantity for boil and just hot water. Ran 200 tumbled brass today which was after those and didn't do any. Also didn't do it to any from the batch sprayed with one shot.
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby yuppiejr on Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:29 am

Is it possible that pure lemon juice paired with standard tap water is leaving a mineral residue on the cases that is adding friction during sizing that a product like Lemi Shine that is used in the stainless steel pin process is not? I noticed a slight "streakiness" on the finish of the lemon juice boiled brass that could be the same sort of mineral residue left on glasses in the dishwasher without a rinse additive.

I see Lemi Shine advertised as a dishwasher additive (like Jet Dri, etc..) to remove cloudiness and other mineral staining/etc... Perhaps substitute (or supplement) your pure lemon juice with such a product to get the desired result?
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby Seismic Sam on Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:44 am

I added an EDIT to my original post. I rinse my brass after boiling with lemon juice and water, just to make sure there are no unintended consequences from the lemon juice.

And I am stumped: How do you get those kind of distinctive markings on the OUTSIDE of the case, when the bullet is going INSIDE the case?? Or is it just the light angle that is making it look so much different??
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Re: Update on boiling range brass in water and lemon juice

Postby LarryFlew on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:29 am

Seismic Sam wrote:I added an EDIT to my original post. I rinse my brass after boiling with lemon juice and water, just to make sure there are no unintended consequences from the lemon juice.

And I am stumped: How do you get those kind of distinctive markings on the OUTSIDE of the case, when the bullet is going INSIDE the case?? Or is it just the light angle that is making it look so much different??


I also rinse well and am also stumped. Yes they are bulges on the outside of the case as though the bullet friction pushed the brass down. The top of the creases are exactly at the bottom of the bullet. Did couple hundred this morning that where washed/rinsed and then 2 hour tumbled and they worked fine. Since that works at both shortening the time and better looking rounds.......................

LIGHT BULB above my head. Just went back and looked at the head stamps on the 20 that did this since I did not sort this brass. All are military "AMA 70". Maybe it has nothing to do with the washing!!!!!!!!!!!!
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