AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

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AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby hammAR on Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:27 am

AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

There's an ever present, unending debate over which is best, ARs or AKs, raging across the internet and in gun shops every day sending bile and bitter insults spewing both ways. This debate has turned fathers against sons, best friends against one another, and........well you get the point. The author is of the opinion that there are of course pros and cons to each family of rifle, and I refuse to engage in what is "best". As one who loves them all, especially the AK and AR series, I thought I'd pass on some of the knowledge I have gained over the years concerning these wildly different weapons. As a bonus, I'll toss in my knowledge of another favorite family of weapons at the Bunker, just because they are very popular these days and I often ramble about them. So, here, for the aid of those hammering one another in the debate, is some unbiased, non-slanted, untainted raw knowledge about the AK, the AR, and the Mosin Nagant.


Stuff you know if you have an AK
It works though you have never cleaned it. Ever.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside.
Cheap mags are fun to buy.
Your safety can be heard from 300 meters away.
Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling.
Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter.
You can put a .30" hole through 12" of oak, if you can hit it.
When out of ammo your rifle will nominally pass as a club.
Recoil is manageable, even fun.
Your sight adjustment goes to "10", and you've never bothered moving it.
Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation's most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide. Y
Your rifle won some revolutions.
You paid $350.
You buy cheap ammo by the case.
You can intimidate your foe with the bayonet mounted.
Service life, 50 years.
It's easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes.
You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick.
You consider it a badge of honor when you get your handguards burst into flames.
After a long day the range you relax by watching "Red Dawn".
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka.
You can accessorize you rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set.
Your rifle's finish is varnish and paint.
Your wife tolerates your autographed framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov.
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout "Wolverines!"

Stuff you know if you have an AR
You have $9 per ounce special non-detergent synthetic Teflon infused oil for cleaning.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600 meters.
Cheap mags melt.
You can silently flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger.
Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system.
Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife.
You can put one hole in a paper target at 100 meters with 30 rounds.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great wiffle bat.
What's recoil?
Your sight adjustment is incremented in fractions of minute of angle.
Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nations' most illiterate conscripts.
Your rifle won the Cold War.
You paid $900.
You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one.
You foes laugh when you mount your bayonet.
Service life, 40 years.
You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and a new upper.
You can repair your rifle by taking it to a certified gunsmith, it's under warranty!
You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group.
After a long day at the range you relax by watching "Blackhawk Down".
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and apple pie.
Your rifle's accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle.
Your rifle's finish is Teflon and high tech polymers.
Your wife tolerates your autographed framed picture of Eugene Stoner.
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie from room to room.

Stuff you know if you have a Mosin Nagant
It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945.
You can hit the farm from two counties over.
What's a mag?
What's a safety?
You rifle has dog collars.
Your bayonet is longer than your leg.
You can knock down everyone else's target with the shock wave of your bullet going downrange.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood.
Recoil is often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot.
Your sight adjustment goes to 12 miles and you've actually tried it.
Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time.
Your rifle won a pole vault event.
You paid $59.95.
You dig your ammo out of a farmer's field in Ukraine and it works just fine.
You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your hole.
Service life, 100 years, and counting.
You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends by suggesting there is anything but 7.62x54r.
If your rifle breaks, you buy a new one.
You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2x4.
After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor.
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shishkabob.
Your rifle's accessory is a small tin can with a funny lid, but it's buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest.
Your rifle's finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga's toe nails.
You're not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin.
Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the the yard to sleep in.


There you have it.
Mosin Nagant Humor
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby Grandpa Rex on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:35 pm

You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby White Horseradish on Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:08 pm

Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!
Do you light your fireplace with dynamite, too? :mrgreen:
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby BlackEagl on Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:49 pm

White Horseradish wrote:
Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!
Do you light your fireplace with dynamite, too? :mrgreen:

What? you're not supposed to? :twisted:
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby sochr000 on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:43 pm

BlackEagl wrote:
White Horseradish wrote:
Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!
Do you light your fireplace with dynamite, too? :mrgreen:

What? you're not supposed to? :twisted:


Nope, gotta use napalm, dynamite will scatter the tinder :p
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby BlackEagl on Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:39 pm

sochr000 wrote:Nope, gotta use napalm, dynamite will scatter the tinder :p

So THAT'S why my fires always turn out so big! :twisted:
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby ChuckJ on Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:20 pm

Took my Mosin Nagant 91/30 to the range today with the new scope it shoots pretty good. :mrgreen:
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby White Horseradish on Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:32 am

ChuckJ wrote:Took my Mosin Nagant 91/30 to the range today with the new scope it shoots pretty good. :mrgreen:

Pshaw. Capitalist weakling. Iron sights and bayonet is all you need.




:mrgreen:
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby Pinnacle on Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:43 am

I once had a Nagant made by REMINGTON in Illion NY - unissued condition and it shot the lights out. Heck of a rifle.
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby Ironbear on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:01 am

Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!

:D
I was watching someone shoot a Mosin at the range once. I don't know what they were using for ammo, but it was the first time I've ever seen a rifle produce a visible muzzle flash in broad daylight! :shock:
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby EJSG19 on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:22 am

Ironbear wrote:
Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!

:D
I was watching someone shoot a Mosin at the range once. I don't know what they were using for ammo, but it was the first time I've ever seen a rifle produce a visible muzzle flash in broad daylight! :shock:


Maybe the Mosin just needs a longer barrel to make better use of all that powder. ;)

I'd say an upgrade to maybe a 48'' barrel would help. It'd make a better tent pole anyway. Longer sight radius, more fps (I'd think, with that fireball going to better use) among other advantages. Its a no-brainer.
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby White Horseradish on Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:33 pm

Ironbear wrote:
Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!

:D
I was watching someone shoot a Mosin at the range once. I don't know what they were using for ammo, but it was the first time I've ever seen a rifle produce a visible muzzle flash in broad daylight! :shock:

They were using older surplus loaded for the infantry rifle or machine gun. Surplus ammo loaded for the carbine barrel is much less common.
"I have come to kick a** and chew bubblegum." <racks shotgun> "And I'm all out of bubblegum."

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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby chunkstyle on Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:42 pm

EJSG19 wrote:
Ironbear wrote:
Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!

:D
I was watching someone shoot a Mosin at the range once. I don't know what they were using for ammo, but it was the first time I've ever seen a rifle produce a visible muzzle flash in broad daylight! :shock:


Maybe the Mosin just needs a longer barrel to make better use of all that powder. ;)

I'd say an upgrade to maybe a 48'' barrel would help. It'd make a better tent pole anyway. Longer sight radius, more fps (I'd think, with that fireball going to better use) among other advantages. Its a no-brainer.


The original M91 "Infantry" version was in fact longer. When introduced, it was 51 1/4 inches long. Originally, there were two other versions, the "Dragoon" and the "Cossack" versions, both 48 3/4 inches long. The Cossack was essentially the same as the Dragoon, save it had no bayonet lug. In the mid-30's, the "Dragoon" version was updated to the 91/30 which we see today, The main changes being the barrel bands (simpler to make) and the sights (in meters, not Tsarist "versts"). The existing stock of hex receivers was slowly used up, and replaced by round ones at this time.

In 1938, a shortened "Carbine" version came out, just 40 inches long, with no bayonet fitting. Many were built on recycled receivers, and production continued until the end of WWII.

Many small simplifications were made to speed production in wartime, making a huge variety of variants. But war experience showed that infanty was best issued with bayonets, so the final Russian production version was the M44, with the side folder. Like the M91/30 and the M38 before, many were made on recycled receivers.

After the war, many older M91/30s were cut down to M38 specifications, and called M91/59s (Though when the Czechs did this, these were called M91/38s). Poland, Romania, Hungary and China each got some of the manufacturing equipment and made versions of the M44 for themselves, called M (or "type") 53.

Finnish production, of course, is an entirely separate story...

The US made Mosinkas in both wars, and for both Russia and Finland. France made some for Russia, in WWI. Many were imported to Finland during her wars with Russia from Belgium, (and some parts from SiG in Switzerland!) as well.


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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby EJSG19 on Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:56 pm

yep. but i was just joking that the current barrel at 28'' and change, should be lengthened to 48'' or so.

as if they aren't long enough already...
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Re: AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Postby Bessy on Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:00 pm

White Horseradish wrote:
Ironbear wrote:
Grandpa Rex wrote:You forgot that your Mosen carbine's flash can be used to light your cigar while you hold it in your mouth!

:D
I was watching someone shoot a Mosin at the range once. I don't know what they were using for ammo, but it was the first time I've ever seen a rifle produce a visible muzzle flash in broad daylight! :shock:

They were using older surplus loaded for the infantry rifle or machine gun. Surplus ammo loaded for the carbine barrel is much less common.



Are you sure they (Russians) ever had a load in 7.62x54 especially for the carbine? What's your source on that info? I've been playing with this caliber for a while, and I've never heard of a load especially for the carbine. There is the common light vs heavy ball, that's all I'm really familiar with. I'd be very interested in reading up on a carbine load if you have the info handy.
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