Second Amendment Foundation backs Manchin-Toomey Amendment

[whiteox]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/04/robert-farago/second-amendment-foundation-manchin-toomey-bill-is-a-win/

[NMRMN]

Mike Vanderboegh not too happy: Alan Gottlieb, "Useful Jew."

In one fell swoop Gottlieb has provided political cover for all those waffling senators and congressmen who were seeking it desperately. The committed, truly evil collectivists like Feinstein and Schumer must be howling with laughter. In return for the chairman's seat on the Judenrat, Gottlieb has agreed to compromise YOUR God-given, natural and inalienable rights to liberty and property in return for, what? Language in a bill that is sure to be amended to our further detriment? At the critical moment when even the NRA was showing a little unexpected backbone, Gottlieb has out-flanked them with his own appeasement. The line is breached and it will be Gottlieb who will be remembered for that little treason.

There WAS a chance this could get stopped cold in the House. No more. Gottlieb's behind-the-scenes stab in the back has put paid to that idea. A truly "useful Jew" indeed.

[photogpat]

Jeez, can anyone other than me see the strategy here?

National CCW reciprocity, and NICS exceptions for Permit Holders (as well as a host of other "good" stuff for us) have been bandied about as part of this bill. By showing support for the WHOLE thing....they're making the other side swallow a pill by objecting to it.

...and if it DOESN'T pass because Dems don't support it, then Repubs can say "Hey, we tried to give your Background Checks and you didn't want it!".

[Heffay]

Jeez, can anyone other than me see the strategy here?

National CCW reciprocity, and NICS exceptions for Permit Holders (as well as a host of other "good" stuff for us) have been bandied about as part of this bill. By showing support for the WHOLE thing....they're making the other side swallow a pill by objecting to it.

...and if it DOESN'T pass because Dems don't support it, then Repubs can say "Hey, we tried to give your Background Checks and you didn't want it!".

Exactly. No need to get an angst aneurysm about this.

[whiteox]

Mike Vanderboegh not too happy: Alan Gottlieb, "Useful Jew."

In one fell swoop Gottlieb has provided political cover for all those waffling senators and congressmen who were seeking it desperately. The committed, truly evil collectivists like Feinstein and Schumer must be howling with laughter. In return for the chairman's seat on the Judenrat, Gottlieb has agreed to compromise YOUR God-given, natural and inalienable rights to liberty and property in return for, what? Language in a bill that is sure to be amended to our further detriment? At the critical moment when even the NRA was showing a little unexpected backbone, Gottlieb has out-flanked them with his own appeasement. The line is breached and it will be Gottlieb who will be remembered for that little treason.

There WAS a chance this could get stopped cold in the House. No more. Gottlieb's behind-the-scenes stab in the back has put paid to that idea. A truly "useful Jew" indeed.

What the **** does Alan Gottlieb's ancestry have to do with anything?! I know literally nothing about Mike Vanderboegh, but based on this, I'm gonna go ahead and file him under people who don't belong on the gun rights side.

[NMRMN]

How do you know Alan Gottlieb is Jewish? What difference does it make? By calling him a useful jew, Vanderboegh is equating himself (and gun rights advocates) to the Jew's slaughtered by Nazi's with the help of traitorous Jew's who sold them out (Or traitorous gun-rights advocates in this case). Vanderboegh is no stranger to controversial statements, anyway... I tend to like him regardless. Feel free to dislike him.

[whiteox]

Looks like the video link in the original story is broken. Sounds like Alan Gottlieb was actually involved in writing the thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E9UMox1WoTw

[whiteox]

How do you know Alan Gottlieb is Jewish? What difference does it make? By calling him a useful jew, Vanderboegh is equating himself (and gun rights advocates) to the Jew's slaughtered by Nazi's with the help of traitorous Jew's who sold them out (Or traitorous gun-rights advocates in this case). Vanderboegh is no stranger to controversial statements, anyway... I tend to like him regardless. Feel free to dislike him.

Calling him a "Useful Jew" doesn't make a lot of sense unless he's Jewish. Which he in fact is. See XDM45's thread about namecalling.

Want to instantly de-legitimize your argument? Start using language like Vanderboegh. I seriously wonder whether some folks around here understand the difference between political tactics and strategy.

Manchin-Toomey is a win for gun-owners. There are provisions in it that give gun-owners protections that are real protections. If you have a carry permit there isn't even a NICS check. If you have a NICS check, the dealer keeps the record of the sale. The ATF can't look at the record unless they have probable cause to believe the gun was used in a crime. These provisions are a hell of a lot better than Schumer's bill. 90% of Americans are in favor of background checks. If a background check bill doesn't pass Republicans in swing districts are going to be losing on this issue left and right. So Gottlieb did something brilliant. He got a background check bill that Republicans can honestly support and put a bunch of stuff that Democrats don't like but most people don't care about into the bill. I've heard that they are going to add amendments for carry permit reciprocity, etc. as well.

Could the NRA stonewall the whole **** thing and stop it cold? Yes. And then they would look like they are completely out of touch with the rest of the country which plays right into the MSNBC/NY Times narrative. It makes it easy for gun rights and gun owners to be marginalized.

I don't think anybody here thinks that selling a gun to a criminal should be legal. The problem now is that there is no requirement to actually check if the person you're selling to actually IS a criminal. So people who make their living arming thugs that threaten our safety are investigated for doing so they can simply shrug their shoulders and say: "I didn't know he was a criminal" and there isn't much that law enforcement can do to prove otherwise or charge them with a crime unless they run a sting operation and catch them on tape. As long as that state of affairs continues our gun rights are at risk. I'm not stupid. I know that crooks are still going to get their girlfriends to buy them guns. The only difference will be now, when the cops come to the girlfriend she can't just say, "I didn't know". She'll (hopefully) be prosecuted and (hopefully) go to jail, and there is a small chance that fewer people will be willing to take the risk of buying a gun for somebody else because the risk is now that much higher.

I feel a little stupid even posting these links, but here they are. This shouldn't even be an issue.
http://chelm.freeyellow.com/Jewish_index.html
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1477137

[NMRMN]

...Vanderboegh is no neo-nazi -- they hate him, haha:

You know, I've been called a lot of names in the past twenty years by everybody from the SPLC to the neoNazis. SPLC has characterized me (back in the 90s) as a stooge for the racists like the Klan, the Neos and the misidentified "Christian" Identities. Of course this was at about the same time as the Constitutional militias were engaged in Operation White Rose and when I was saying that "Christian Identity is for pantywaists”:

“I think in some ways Christian Identity is designed for pantywaists who are afraid to declare themselves true Nazis,” Vanderboegh jibed. “These are the folks who have to tell their mommas or their wives, “It’s OK that we hate blacks and Jews, dear, because God and Jesus told us it’s OK. Whereas the Nazis don’t worry about that kind of thing. They’re sort of beyond excuses.

“You know, when you’ve got Adolf Hitler as your standard-bearer, what else have you got to be embarrassed about?” Vanderboegh said.

“They each come to their pus-filled beliefs by different roads, but they agree on the destination.” -- “Christian Identity is for pantywaists” by Jeff Stein, Salon, 11 Aug 1999.

For their part the neos and identities called me "Red Mike" and claimed I was an agent of both the Mossad AND the SPLC. The loon Bill Cooper (who also claimed to have shot it out with space aliens) called me "John Doe Number Five." The Larouchies claimed (and do yet today) that I was an agent of MI-5. At the time of the small window war over Obamacare, I was denounced by Kurt Nimmo at Alex Jones "Infowars":

and

This is one more example of how present-day so-called progressives are reflexively obsessed themselves with race (and why they feel it necessary to conflate true racist terrorist groups like the Klan and NeoNazis with groups like ourselves who believe that the Constitution extends to everyone regardless of race, creed, color or religion).

You should read his full post on op-white rose. Hilarious biographical detail of his vendetta against neos and klansmen:

It is not much of a secret that some of us in the constitutional militia movement took it upon ourselves to confront the racist, "Identity" and neoNazi terrorists directly after Oklahoma City. We embarrassed the FBI (by a poster campaign, see above) into arresting a member of the Aryan Republican Army bank robbery gang, one Michael Brescia, who the Fibbies were giving a free pass to wander around his old haunts of Philadelphia armed and dangerous long after all the other members of the gang were dead or busted.

In addition, we broke into other proto-terrorist slimeballs' homes and businesses, leaving calling cards that made certain they understood that if the FBI was giving them a pass, WE weren't -- and that if anything else blew up, WE would make sure THEY ended up very dead. As no one was killed in this cold war of nerves -- our war, their nerves -- I can be frank about it because the statute of limitations has run out on all the minor violations of law (burglary, blackmail, menacing threats) we committed to ensure that the Klan-Identity-Nazis committed no more mass homicides.

[whiteox]

If he truly believes that the Constitution extends to everyone regardless of race, creed, color or religion then WHY BRING UP RACE, CREED or RELIGION?

It's a commission of the worst rhetorical sin of all: IT'S NOT EFFECTIVE. It makes the opposition think he's a racist jerk. Even if he's not. Even if he's the polar opposite of a racist jerk.

Then they paint him as a racist jerk, they run endless loops of the dog-whistle language on cable news and the argument he was trying to make is lost in the din.

[NMRMN]

I understand what you are saying. Vanderboegh's historical analogy is provocatively biting, likely due to his passion for gun-rights and his disinterest in political 'correctness'. His comments were directed towards Gottlieb and 2A supporters, not anyone else.

I haven't studied the bill in detail (and there could be some underlying 'strategy'), but it appears to me to be a SELL-OUT. As a gun rights advocate, I am pissed. If I were an SAF member, I would be especially pissed. For goodness sakes, even the NRA is against it.

more: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=42472

[Ramoel]

I found this quite interesting.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -toomey-m/

A prominent gun-rights advocate claims his group’s staff was in the room during the drafting of the recently unveiled proposal to expand gun-purchase background checks and said that “we snookered the other side — they haven’t figured it out yet.”

[whiteox]

Sounds like there may be some significant oopses in the Amendment.

I'm back to opposing the thing unless they get fixed.


http://www.volokh.com/2013/04/15/the-pro-gun-provisions-of-manchin-toomey-are-actually-a-bonanza-of-gun-control/

[chunkstyle]

The national CCW reciprocity has been stripped out by Schumer.

[NMRMN]

David Codrea tells it like it is:

First, addressing the potential 15-year penalty for violating the registry proscription, as others have observed, who’s going to enforce that, Eric Holder? And if he doesn’t and then stonewalls, what will Congress do then? Stretch out hearings for a couple years and then file a contempt charge that he’ll ignore and continue to stonewall in the courts?

As for Gottlieb’s contention that if the measures CCRKBA insists on are removed he’ll simply walk away from the deal, what makes him think that will matter, once the fear of voting for background checks has been removed in principle, and the very idea has been promoted as something that is supported by prominent gun rights advocates? Speaking of which, how many principled politicians are out there anyway, and how many constituents will follow the nuances of under which conditions a “yes” vote is considered either good or bad?

But really, all this is just arguing over dancing angels and heads of pins -- the only acceptable answer for hard core gun owners is going to be “No,” and arguments about “goodies” and “Christmas tree ornaments” are hardly going to be persuasive to men and women who take their Bill of Rights seriously, because they know it was secured with powder, lead, steel and blood.

...Because all the negotiations and deal-making and compromises notwithstanding, ultimately, the Second Amendment means what serious people with guns say it does, and since some of us will not back down nor cede another inch, we’ll just have to see how hard those who would force us to bend to their will have the arrogance to push. That’s the singular miscalculation those otherwise brilliant players on “our side,” who think things can all be settled with a roll call, the autographing of a piece of paper or the banging of a gavel haven’t factored into their equations.

We will not disarm. And we are everywhere.

read more: http://www.examiner.com/article/gun-own ... ck-support