Berry's 9mm 124 Gr HP Reloading ????

[Flip]

Hi All,

My buddy & I are working up loads of Berry's 9mm 124 Gr (plated) HP's (with Accurate No 7) ... from the book of LRN loads and its saying C.O.L. should be 1.095"

2 questions

1) in our reloading system, we're seeing a lot of variation in the overall lengths from 1.085 - 1.096" ... any idea what's wrong? I'm seeing on the internet that many have variation of 0.002" not 0.01"

2) at C.O.L. of 1.095", my buddies XD (Sub compact) won't chamber the round and his Taurus 92 will but just barely ... how much can you vary from the published C.O.L. and be safe?


Thanks in advance,

Flip

[bensdad]

1) in our reloading system, we're seeing a lot of variation in the overall lengths from 1.085 - 1.096" ... any idea what's wrong? I'm seeing on the internet that many have variation of 0.002" not 0.01"

That's too much variation. It doesn't even make sense. If the die is set, and the stroke is full, there should be almost no variation. I load FMJ in 9mm and get 1.132 - 1.1335 or so.

Are the primers seated fully (a primer bump can make a hell of a difference)?
Are you using the correct seater plug?
Are you tightening the lock nut?

2) at C.O.L. of 1.095", my buddies XD (Sub compact) won't chamber the round and his Taurus 92 will but just barely ... how much can you vary from the published C.O.L. and be safe?

What do you mean by "won't chamber the round"? There's more to this than length. You have to taper crimp 9mm. They headspace on the case mouth. Take the bbl out of the gun. Grab a factory 9mm rd. Drop it in. Turn the bbl upside down and hold the bullet in the bbl. with your finger. Let it slide in and out (up and down). Hear the little clang as it headspaces? Feel how it slides right back out when you let it? See and feel where the base is in relation to the feed ramp and chamber when it's in there? That's what your reloads should look and feel like. Reset your die for the proper taper crimp (or get a factory crimping die).

[Sigfan220]

I had this happen with my 45ACP. The Lee 228gr LRN seems to have a very blunt round nose. When seated to the standard length in the load books the bullet would make contact with the rifling. I used my case gauge to seat the bullet deaper till it would champer properly. These case gauges really come in handy.

[Rem700]

Looks like your trying to use the OAL from a LRN to load HP, The bullet ogive is very different and the HP is most likely hitting the rifleing.

[Rem700]

Telephone: 1 (800) 269-7373
Email: sales@berrysmfg.com

Or call John Walton at Gunstop

[macphisto]

The bullet ogive is very different and the HP is most likely hitting the rifleing.

This is correct; it doesn't have anything to do with crimp or case dimensions.

I dealt with this exact issue using the same bullets and gun. I can't recall the OAL I ended up with, but I just kept seating the bullets deeper little-by-little until they would chamber (take the barrel out of the gun as bensdad suggested). Keep the loads conservative as the deeper seating depth is bound to increase pressure.

[Seismic Sam]

Rookie mistake #23 - JHP bullets are shorter than full ogive, so the OAL will be different. For the 45 ACP, the OAL for 230 grain FMJ ball bullets is 1.260", while for JHP's it 1.220" to 1.230" Plus you broke the cardinal rule of reloading by substituting a component (in this case the bullet) and assumed you could get away with it. Lucky for you, you were smart enough to ask questions before you blew your ass off. You still may be screwed with that substitution, however, because Lead Round Nose bullets slide down the barrel easier than jacketed bullets, and therfore run at lower pressures. If you're at the max powder load for the LRN, they it's pretty much a guarantee that you will be overpressure with ANY jacketed bullet. Add a deeper seating depth to that situation, and it will drive the pressure even higher.

And just to be clear about this, when you buy an EFFEN reloading manual, you are supposed to READ THE WHOLE THING FROM COVER TO COVER before you load your first round!! Most of this information is in there, but if you just go to the 9mm loads and start tinkering to begin with, you're absolutely begging for trouble. In addition, if you are a rookie, you should actually go to the trouble of reading all the stuff about EVERY caliber in that manual, because there are all sorts of useful facts that are in there about other calibers that may have some applicability to what you are doing.

[Stradawhovious]

Hey SS, could you please outline the first 22 rookie mistakes?

[bensdad]

Even if they're hitting the rifling (and with that COL, I'm not convinced), we still haven't solved the issue of widely varying COL of finished ammo. More than one mistake is happening here - all of which can be serious.

Can a COL of 1.095 really be reaching the lans? That seems just way too short for that to be the problem... which is why I mentioned the crimping issue.

[macphisto]

I just mic'd one of my finished rounds: 1.030"

Any longer and THEY ENGAGE THE RIFLING AND FAIL TO CHAMBER. Here's a picture that may help if you've never loaded these particular bullets (and thus have no idea what you're talking about): http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-19878442352198_2064_664162

I'm beginning to understand why Sam and ET get so worked up about this type of crap. bensdad, please refer to that shirt your wife wears to The Gopher.

[bensdad]

Jeez Mac, be careful. I'm sensitive ya know!
Of course you are completely right about the COL issue. Holy blunt ogive! I've only loaded 3 or 5 different 9mm bullets, and once I found a fave, I stopped trying new things. I've never seen an ogive that short/blunt. The full dia. goes way the heck up. Plus, even for HP, my Speer 14 lists about 1.1 as normal COL. Thus I assumed... I'll just shut the **** up now.

Not quite yet. What accounts for the huge variety they were getting in COL?

Now I'll shut up and listen.

[Rem700]

Jeez Mac, be careful. I'm sensitive ya know!
Of course you are completely right about the COL issue. Holy blunt ogive! I've only loaded 3 or 5 different 9mm bullets, and once I found a fave, I stopped trying new things. I've never seen an ogive that short/blunt. The full dia. goes way the heck up. Plus, even for HP, my Speer 14 lists about 1.1 as normal COL. Thus I assumed... I'll just shut the **** up now.

Not quite yet. What accounts for the huge variety they were getting in COL?

Now I'll shut up and listen.

Die body not tight
Seating stem not tight
Bullet lube from lead bullets on the seating stem
Inconsistent seating from bumping the lever at the top of the stroke instead of a steady pressure usually from trying to go to fast.
Have you read the ABCs of reloading

[JFettig]

You didn't specify what dies your using, but my guess is that the ogive changes close to that much within the area the the seating stem pushes on the bullet and that'll likely cause the problem..


you also didn't specify your reloading system. If its a lee loader, I wouldn't be surprised by the variation...


Jon

[Seismic Sam]

And the reason I get so pissed off is when I'm on this forum, it's like being forced to nursemaid a bunch of EFFEN 4 year olds, and I get tired of this shyte!!! I'm here to jaw with 1911fan and jack up Tootsie and HammAR, and not wipe the nose of every newb who jumps into reloading with both feet before reading the whole EFFEN manual and also the directions that came with the dies. Grumble, grumble, grumble...

Okay, here are some causes: Unless you are using a 4 die set where the 4th die is the taper crimp die, then you have to set the seating die to seat the bullet AND apply the crimp. This is a multi-step process:

First, you put an empty sized case in the shell holder, and run the ram up to the top of the stroke. Then you screw down the seating die until it touches the case and starts to make it turn, and back off the die a full turn and lock it in place. Then you seat a bullet to the proper COL by gradually adjusting down the seating stem. Now you back out the seating stem, unlock the die body, and turn it down on the proper COL round until it touches the shoulder of the case. Tehn you turn it down a bit more, and I can't tell you how far that is because the dies vary. Maybe an 1/8th of a turn, maybe a quarter. Measure the amount the case mouth has contracted since you seated the bullet. .002" is a light to medium crimp, .005 is a good tight crimp suitable for a 500 Smith load. NOW lock the die in place again, and then with the bullet still in place, screw down the seating stem until it runs up hard against the bullet and lock that in place. Now seat another bullet, and make sure the specs are still right. (You DO realize that almost all reloading presses are OVER-TOP-DEAD-CENTER strokes, don't you, so that the round goes up higher just before the ram handle goes all the way to the top of its stroke??) Adjust the seating part of the die as necessary.

Now if you are a runny nosed newb who just cranked down the seating die to far, it can be putting too much taper crimp on the case, and actually making the bullet longer. Sometimes the bottom of the bullet moves further into the case, sometime the nose goes up. Who the EFF knows which?

Another cause if that if you have an assortment of mixed case head stamp brass, that could be causing it. Some cases have slightly thicker or stiffer walls than others, so the seating pressure will be different. If you are sloppy in seating the bullets perfectly straight on the case mouth before seating, or if the cases are different, it can have a big effect on the seating pressure, If the seating pressure gets high enough, you can actually squash the nose of the bullet, and that could be where the COL variation is coming from.

Just for you rifle newbs, if you are shooting Sierra Matchkings, you WILL get variability in the COL no matter what. The reason is that the length of the bullets is variable, because the tip of the bullet is the crimped down jacket, and it can vary in length depending on which part of the jacket is sticking up highest. If you are loading these bullets, however, you are supposed to be experienced enough to know this, and you should have set up your load to be a caertain number of mils off the lands of your particular rifle. Rifle seating dies generally (and all match dies DO) seat off the ogive of the bullet rather than the tip, so nobody gives a **** about the COL. You can measure the COL accurately with bullets like the Nosler ballistic tip or Hornady A-Max or a Barnes solid, but with match JHP's you can't.

My guess is you're squashing the bullet nose with sloppy seating technique. Plated bullet jackets really don't offer much support to prevent this.

BTW - you DID ream the inside of the case mouths of your brass before you reloaded them, didn't you?? New brass has a small lip on the inside of the case, and if you don't ream that off, it will screw up the bullet seating big time. You only have to do this once, but you DO have to do it.

[goalie]

BTW - you DID ream the inside of the case mouths of your brass before you reloaded them, didn't you?? New brass has a small lip on the inside of the case, and if you don't ream that off, it will screw up the bullet seating big time. You only have to do this once, but you DO have to do it.

For the sake of clarity, I would point out that some manuals refer to it as chamfering or de-burring

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