Big trouble with the Precision Delta group buy

[yuppiejr]

If I may offer a suggestion to Jim... while it probably stings to consider, perhaps offering folks you owe money equal value in shooting related items (reloading equipment or supplies, ammo, firearms, etc..) as an alternative to waiting on cash would be a constructive alternative to asking folks to wait any longer? I seem to recall this approach finally brought a close to the Wildfan group buy debacle a while back. Where there's a will, there's a way. Good luck to all including Jim in this situation.

[Evad]

Qty
4000 180gr .40
9000 .45
5000 115gr 9mm
3000 124gr 9mm
4000 124grHP 9mm

Total of quantities on order and on hold

Did they by chance say if they will split these up to the original recipients? I know the second GB was 26K bullets...don't know the size of the first. If this is all that hasn't shipped, maybe Jim has my order from GB1?

I'd apprecite the mods not ban him as he is suspecting, even if he is limited in what he can do/post.

[Seismic Sam]

Sadly, I doubt that PD even knows about GB1 and GB2, and what I posted is what they have sitting there. As noted, the total on hold is $2800, and we just passed that mark with a total of Ten people out $2933, which I consider to be even worse news because now we're out more money than what seems to have been ordered. Sorry for the additional bad news, folks.

[Evad]

Sadly, I doubt that PD even knows about GB1 and GB2, and what I posted is what they have sitting there. As noted, the total on hold is $2800, and we just passed that mark with a total of Ten people out $2933, which I consider to be even worse news because now we're out more money than what seems to have been ordered. Sorry for the additional bad news, folks.

I would bet a lot of that order is GB2. Also, for the PMs you got...are they GB1 or GB2 people? Those things could cause the discrepency above, and I know some of GB1 people got bullets. This will be tough to sort out without getitng everyone's order, cost and fulfilled status. I am sure we all appreciate your effort here, but I have to guess PD simply can't give you some of this info with you not being the original customer.What confuses me, is the qty on hold looks like GB2. Unless some of the orders were canceled when Jim's funds were locked up.

[OldmanFCSA]

?

[bpacman]

I hear you Doug and I agree that beating Jim up over this stuff is not worth it. I just hate to see someone give up their integrity over something like this. No matter how hard times get, that is the one thing no one can take from you. I would rather sell my guns then give that up.

On a side note, I put in an order this morning with Precision Delta for the bullets I covered in this deal and they shipped them today. I don't know if that is a result of the order that was put on hold being cancelled or if they actually have the inventory in stock now. Either way, they are there for the ordering and waiting for Jim to make things right ain't a problem, for me anyway.

Jim, best of luck Brother and if you dig yourself out of this hole, I hope to meet you in person some day.

Brent

[Seismic Sam]

Well Oldman, I would have told everybody the SAME DAY I got busted out by the State that it happened, because it was their money and not mine I lost, and they DESERVED to know immediately. But nooo, in this case whole MONTHS went by without a word being said, and it took TWO FULL MONTHS of one member repeatedly trying to get his money back before Jim admitted that it was all gone. He did absolutely everything he could to avoid telling us, and it wasn't until that member posted the clue that the problem wasn't with PD that I got into this matter, and found out what I did. And please note that that the member's post said that Jim was going to get back to them and explain all this, and he still refused to make contact with any of us and tell us the truth. And please don't hand me any boo-hoo stuff about Jim's health conditions being a factor in this situation, because I've been working with people busted up like this or worse for 3 1/2 years face to face, and there's no correlation between having a broken body and having no conscience or not knowing the difference between right and wrong. As a matter of fact, you're pretty busted up yourself, and you're one of the most stand-up citizens on this board, and if you had been in this situation you would have told us what went down immediately even if it was with your dying breath.

Jim had every chance for months to tell us what happened, and all he did was blame PD and hide in the corner until one of us was persistent enough over two months of working on it that he finally made Jim spill the beans. Eleanor08 already said it: Schitt happens, and if you had just explained it to us right then it would have been no big deal. Well, it is a big deal, Jim hid from it for as long as he could.

[45Badger]

No dog in this fight, but it's very disappointing news. If it were me, my guns, ammo, and reloading equipment would be for sale. If they did it cover the debt, I'd be selling extras of other stuff.

Bottom line- There is one solid way to make this right. Sell your stuff and pay people back.

[Mauser98]

Sorry to disagree with you Oldman, but Jim has done nothing up to this point to deserve sympathy from me. IF, however, Jim would have been an upstanding guy, stuck between a rock and a hard spot, came clean the moment he knew the hammer was coming down, I would probably have GIVEN him money to help with his legal costs, and to help him out through the hard times to come. I have seen this board come together recently and do some really great things for other members in need, and I believe that the same would have happened for Jim. Part of the First Group Buy is actually an example, as a few people backed out, and people like myself and Sam bought up the remaining stock to prevent Jim from having overdraft fee's and what not. I'm not that concerned about the money I'm out, more will come.

What has me upset is that I've been ignored by Jim for a couple of months. I've left him 2 voicemail's, 1 email to his gmail account, and a PM or 2 from this board. I chalked it up to the excuses about Precision Delta, and the recovery from surgery. Once I found about out from my co-worker that PD orders were shipping relatively fast did I get concerned and start looking into things.

Now, once I was being ignored, I figure that is when the hammer fell on Jim's accounts. Since then, Jim has made the following posts:

Talking about hiring a guide essentially.
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=49137&p=506237#p506237

Wanting to buy brass
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49103&p=505841#p505841

Heading over to Ammocraft to buy powder, and bought a pound of RL-19
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=49020&p=505839#p505839

Buying mags for a Glock (shudder), title claims "Found"
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49024&p=505379#p505379

Planning road trips to buy powder and visit people
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49024&p=505379#p505379

Has powder to trade
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=48861&p=504327#p504327

Went to Ahlman's
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=48827&p=504234#p504234

Not exactly the activities of a person without a dime to spare. I quit searching for more, it irritates me and I think the point is made.

So, how exactly am I supposed to take this? Even in Jim's post regarding this, he's hiding behind PM's, texts, and email's to other members, instead of posting DIRECTLY to the forum. Not until he was outed, did he finally admit there was an issue. There is still more going on here than he is telling us, and I think the entire forum membership deserves a full and thorough explanation, with as much detail to determine where each group buy stands.

I ask you Oldman, if you and Jim are as good as friends as both of you talk about here, how long have you known about this? And, if you have known for a while, why have you not informed the membership?

I also ask you to reverse the roll you asked of us, and look at it from the side of the people who are out. How would you respond to the lies and deceit Jim has given all of us?

I do hope Jim is NOT banned from the board. He needs to be able to update people with the details of this debacle. When Wildfan was banned, I saw FJ540 relaying quite a bit, and I'm sure that had its own set of problems.

Sam, in looking back at the posts, in the GB1, Jim claimed an order of 50K bullets, and I think I remember reading the total was around $4700, and in GB2 24K, but I don't recall the dollars.


Jim, don't worry about paying me back. I'll toss this into the learning pile, as I need to move on.

[cobb]

For those involved, BigDog is not currently banned from MNGunTalk. This was done so that BigDog has a way to contact the people involved through PM's and try to make things right.

[Pat Cannon]

If I may offer a suggestion to Jim... while it probably stings to consider, perhaps offering folks you owe money equal value in shooting related items (reloading equipment or supplies, ammo, firearms, etc..) as an alternative to waiting on cash would be a constructive alternative to asking folks to wait any longer? I seem to recall this approach finally brought a close to the Wildfan group buy debacle a while back. Where there's a will, there's a way. Good luck to all including Jim in this situation.

A very constructive suggestion. When the late great 1911fan had a group buy go in the toilet, he gave me a couple pounds of powder for the money I was out and all was cool.

[OldmanFCSA]

I've known for just a short period of time, did explain it to two individuals who contacted me directly, and told Jim to explain it to everyone else, which he stated he would do. It was not my responsibility to notify all parties, which I could not do anyway without all the contact info required.

I agree Jim should have communicated better with all of us, but especially with the individual buyers in the Group Buy.

I respect all who disagree with me, because they state it to my face. If you must talk behind my back, you lose respect from all parties.

Cobb: Thank you for allowing Jim to continue to post in this topic any results he has with the State and the pay-off to Members involved in the Group Buy. It's easy for people to spout out about banning people, but the restraint shown will allow for corrections to be made thru direct conversations or by using the PM feature for related private conversations. Thank you again.


Everyone reacts to troubles differently, some do nothing, some run & hide, some ask for forgiveness, some react strongly to resolve the troubles.
We will never know how we will react until we ourselves are put in that situation. I will not pass judgement on others without more info.

[fabb600]

Can't we go to small claims court as an option as well? Although for my lost $372 I'm not sure it's worth the effort - except for the principle of the matter.

[westberg]

It's time for bigdog to start offering up assets to cover the debts.

[flanjan]

Having no part of this what so ever: as a poor college student, holy heck am I glad I didn't get in on this. I made an account specifically to question about getting in on the order. A smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from others mistakes. For all of you who are out money, thanks for the wisdom!