This is not black and white, noob post

[MarkL]

Ok, I got the 550b set back up for 45. Measured 20 individual drops for 4.5gr of Bullseye.
So the powder drops are accurate, the velocities seem close enough to be accurate as far as the chrono is concerned, maybe I should load 10 rounds with 4.7 or 4.8gr and see what the values are then? Or load another batch of 4.5 and try it again to see what I get?

The Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook has for a 230gr TMJ 1.275"OAL Max at 5.3gr, so 4.8 is still in the safe zone, this info should be compatible with a Berrys Plated 230gr RN. The conflicting info is that at 4.3gr it's supposed to have a velocity of 662 with 3.8gr.

Seems odd that if the chrono was malfunctioning, that all the 9mm data is fine and the 45 data is similar. The data seems to consistent to be reading just the 45 data incorrectly.
Definitely a puzzler, had no feed issues, shot a 2.5" group with 1 flyer (me).

[Seismic Sam]

Well, a couple of things, and this is about the most classic case I have seen of a n00b drinking the Blue Kool-Aid off the bat and getting seduced by the ease of the technology, and setting up two turrets with measures and everything else, so that he can easily switch from one caliber to another and "EVERYTHING WILL BE THE SAME AS IT WAS THE LAST TIME IT WAS USED." That assumption is a huge, glaring violation of the fundamental rules governing reloading safety, and you NEVER load up a batch of anything without checking out your scale and powder measure JUST before you start throwing charges. NEVER. EVER.

The fact that you went back to check that head means that you weren't 100% sure when you loaded up those 10 rounds of the charge weight, and trusted in the Dillon System rather than your own direct control and observation of the powder charges just before they went onto the cases.

Secondly, there is the matter that you didn't stop after the 1st shot with the 45 and wonder WTF is wrong?? When you handload you should have the data memorized and/or written down, so when you pull the trigger and see the velocity on the chrono, you will know if it's in the ballpark or not. The 9mm data appears to be dead nuts on, and you should have known that from the get-go when you set up the chrono, so that series of shots should have told you that the M2 was working.
The first shot you knew was a 45 was 479 FPS, and that is WAAAYYY off the bottom end of any book I have for 4.5 grains of Bullseye. As a mater off fact, I have NO velocities in tables in any of my books that go lower than 600 FPS, much less 500 FPS. Found a few velocities in the mid 5's in the Lyman book, but that's about it. Hornady #9 shows a lead 230 grain RN at 770 for 4.5 grains of Bullseye, and other manuals show the velocity to be higher than that for other 230's with the same amount of powder.

Bottom line, you have acquired too much in the way of handloading equipment too quickly, and are trusting the equipment to keep your handloading safe. BIG MISTAKE. Then you bought very good chrono, which IS a good decision up front, but you started using it without knowing beforehand what the velocities were supposed to be, so you didn't know enough too know it was working properly to begin with, and that your 45 loads are hosed up in a fairly major way in the next string.

I've seen a lot of idiots come through here who were so damn dumb that if they screwed up their handloading and blew part of their head off, they'd be too damn stupid to know the difference and just keep on going. You are NOT that kind of person, which is why I'm still talking to you, but you are stacking one mistake or lack of the proper information on top of another, and if you keep this up this WILL catch up with you, and fairly fast and perhaps painfully. Go back to square 1 and start over.

[MarkL]

The fact that you went back to check that head means that you weren't 100% sure when you loaded up those 10 rounds of the charge weight, and trusted in the Dillon System rather than your own direct control and observation of the powder charges just before they went onto the cases.

This was the first 10 rounds I had ever loaded and must have spent 2 hours measuring and verifying that the powder drops were consistent at 4.5gr.
I can't emphasize enough the effort that went into (with anything I do) to make sure and validate that the powder drops were consistent and correct. I probably measure 3 times with 10 drops each to validate that I had 45gr, then measured anywhere from 10-20 individual drops, maybe overkill, but for my first time I wanted to know and be confident that I had it right. Today I loaded up the 45 setup to validate and confirm that I didn't make a mistake, I see nothing wrong with validating the drops were correct then and correct now. Each round was completed individually of the other, not using the full features of the press to process more than 1 at a time. Each round when finished was then confirmed with a case guage check and visually checked for any flaws.

Secondly, there is the matter that you didn't stop after the 1st shot with the 45 and wonder WTF is wrong?? When you handload you should have the data memorized and/or written down, so when you pull the trigger and see the velocity on the chrono, you will know if it's in the ballpark or not. The 9mm data appears to be dead nuts on, and you should have known that from the get-go when you set up the chrono, so that series of shots should have told you that the M2 was working.
The first shot you knew was a 45 was 479 FPS, and that is WAAAYYY off the bottom end of any book I have for 4.5 grains of Bullseye. As a mater off fact, I have NO velocities in tables in any of my books that go lower than 600 FPS, much less 500 FPS. Found a few velocities in the mid 5's in the Lyman book, but that's about it. Hornady #9 shows a lead 230 grain RN at 770 for 4.5 grains of Bullseye, and other manuals show the velocity to be higher than that for other 230's with the same amount of powder.

Granted, as a noob, I did not validate or catch the discrepancy of the velocities on the first shot. I also should have fired some factory rounds to confirm that the chrono was at or close to factory specs to confirm it's proper operation. This will be done on the next outing. I appreciate the fact that you caught the low values and I didn't, at least I purchased the chrono to confirm my loads. My thought process at the time and in error was if I didn't see anything above 800 fps and no squibs which I felt confident I wouldn't have, then I failed to be alert to the fact the velocities were way low.

Bottom line, you have acquired too much in the way of handloading equipment too quickly, and are trusting the equipment to keep your handloading safe. BIG MISTAKE. Then you bought very good chrono, which IS a good decision up front, but you started using it without knowing beforehand what the velocities were supposed to be, so you didn't know enough too know it was working properly to begin with, and that your 45 loads are hosed up in a fairly major way in the next string.

I've seen a lot of idiots come through here who were so damn dumb that if they screwed up their handloading and blew part of their head off, they'd be too damn stupid to know the difference and just keep on going. You are NOT that kind of person, which is why I'm still talking to you, but you are stacking one mistake or lack of the proper information on top of another, and if you keep this up this WILL catch up with you, and fairly fast and perhaps painfully. Go back to square 1 and start over.

[/quote]

So my new game plan will be to load up another 10 rounds of the same recipe and go back to the range. The first group of shots will be with factory ammo to confirm the chrono is working properly. Then I'll fire up the test rounds and see what happens, so the question will be, if I get values in the same range, then is there a problem and what is causing it?
Using a Beam scale and is the same one used to setup the 9mm rounds so I know how to use it and set it up. Can or could there be an issue with the powder? No abnormalities were observed on the spent cases and encountered no feed issues. When I fired these rounds, I loaded a single round in the mag first and fired that to verify the round would fire, eject and lock the slide. I then loaded 2 rounds and repeated, I then loaded the remaining rounds and fired those without issue except for the low velocities observed. If I see the same results, do I fire all of them or stop if the chrono was ok with the factory rounds?

[Seismic Sam]

If there were an issue with Bullsyeye powder density being that far off, there would have been the Mother of All Recalls by Alliant about that. So no, I wouldn't worry about the Bullseye right now, as long as you got it from a new container that you bought. As far as getting the measure set up to average 10 loads to get the measure dead center on the average weight, you did good and followed my instructions to the letter. That's not where you went wrong. Something with your Dillon 45 powder charging setup is hosed, and I have to confess that unless you have two identical powder measures (like two Lee Perfect Powder measures) that are very precise and hold their charge weight well, I don't know enough about the Dillon powder measures to make a comment, but something is very clearly wrong, and consistently wrong also. An M2 chrono is not liable to be off at all if it's working, and with just plain skyscreens about all that can go wrong is that is can go wonky at a certain time, and then just die. And that won't be random, but occur at a certain time early in the morning or late in the afternoon. And if your 45 setup is dropping powder fine, then you better look at the interation with the rest of the Dillon when it's bolted in place, to make sure the powder delivery route isn't misaligned or constricted in some way.

Good luck.

EDIT: How is the powder throw mechanism set up, and hooked up to the rest of the loader? Are you only getting a partial throw because some parts are not fully engaging??

[MarkL]

The powder measure operates by the case contacting with the powder funnel/die. It does 2 jobs, it bells the mouth of the case and operates the powder measure dropping the powder into the case. When you raise the platform (pulling the lever back), the case will contact with the bottom of the powder funnel, depending on the adjustment for amount of belling, as the platform continues to raise the case, the powder die operates the linkage to slide the powder bar, dumping the powder into the shell and belling the case. Raising the lever back up, the platform drops, resetting the powder measure for the next drop. All linkages are in place and operate correctly. All my individual measures are done by removing the case after the bell/powder drop and dumping onto the scale (powder only) confirming the correct weight.

I will individually weigh each drop for this next batch to assure the most controlled load as possible, so if the numbers don't change it won't be because of an incorrect charge.

On my M2, I was using my Infrared screens, if you are familiar with the Bald Eagle Gun Club, the 25 yard range has a 3 walled shed, so no direct sunlight involved to alter any readings.
I still don't believe I was light on the loads (meaning that there wasn't 4.2gr's), I have the OAL set and varies from to 1.260-1.265. I am shooting this in my Springfield TRP Operator, not sure, but as I understand it, barrel length can effect velocity, just adding this additional info. Recording the factory ammo will help to figure this out I hope.

[noylj]

>The powder measure operates by the case contacting with the powder funnel/die. It does 2 jobs, it bells the mouth of the case and operates the powder measure dropping the powder into the case.

If using a cartridge-specific powder funnel, it does 3 jobs:
1) expands the case ID, which should be 0.001-0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter.
2) flare/bells the case mouth
3) charges the case with powder.
#1 is VERY important for lead bullets and important for all bullets.

[BigDog58]

If there were an issue with Bullsyeye powder density being that far off, there would have been the Mother of All Recalls by Alliant about that. So no, I wouldn't worry about the Bullseye right now, as long as you got it from a new container that you bought. As far as getting the measure set up to average 10 loads to get the measure dead center on the average weight, you did good and followed my instructions to the letter. That's not where you went wrong. Something with your Dillon 45 powder charging setup is hosed, and I have to confess that unless you have two identical powder measures (like two Lee Perfect Powder measures) that are very precise and hold their charge weight well, I don't know enough about the Dillon powder measures to make a comment, but something is very clearly wrong, and consistently wrong also. An M2 chrono is not liable to be off at all if it's working, and with just plain skyscreens about all that can go wrong is that is can go wonky at a certain time, and then just die. And that won't be random, but occur at a certain time early in the morning or late in the afternoon. And if your 45 setup is dropping powder fine, then you better look at the interation with the rest of the Dillon when it's bolted in place, to make sure the powder delivery route isn't misaligned or constricted in some way.






Good luck.

EDIT: How is the powder throw mechanism set up, and hooked up to the rest of the loader? Are you only getting a partial throw because some parts are not fully engaging??

I use large amounts of Bullseye and throw the majority of my measures through a Lee Auto-Disk Pro, mounted on a Lee Classic Turret. Every time I begin a reloading session, I physically check my first ten charges and almost every time, I have a slight adjustment (forgot to mention I'm using the Adjustable Charge bar). But once it's set, let's say to 4.3gr (one of my 9mm charges) it rarely varies .1gr variation. I'm not sure if it is temp, or barametric pressure, or possibly settling of the powder (I do have a baffle in my measure), but it often requires tweaking.

I do the same checking with my bullet seating, but it is usually dead on, where I left it. I do this every time I begin a new reloading session, or every time I change calibers. My bench sits where others have access to it (my sons friends when they are all home from college) and although they all have been told to never touch my equipment without my permission,I feel that I can NEVER be too cautious.

It only takes a few minutes to check and verify your reloading setup is operating properly. And in this hobby, we can NEVER BE TOO SAFE!

[MarkL]

>The powder measure operates by the case contacting with the powder funnel/die. It does 2 jobs, it bells the mouth of the case and operates the powder measure dropping the powder into the case.

If using a cartridge-specific powder funnel, it does 3 jobs:
1) expands the case ID, which should be 0.001-0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter.
2) flare/bells the case mouth
3) charges the case with powder.
#1 is VERY important for lead bullets and important for all bullets.

On the 550b that I have station 1 resizes the case and deprimes
Station 2 is the powder stations the does #2 and #3
Station 3 seats the bullet
Station 4 does the taper crimp to remove the bell


I have 10 new rounds loaded as before and individually weighed each charge. Any difference found was .1 - .2gr's.
So Saturday I'll go back out and shoot some factory first to validate what I'm getting.

[MarkL]

Based on this info posted earlier in this thread and more Googling and research on this, I think the data may be correct and just too low of a charge.
So I'm going to make up another 10 as well with a charge of 4.8gr. If the Alliant and Speer book are show 5.7gr as max for a 230gr TMJ, then this load has to be too low and not a malfunction of some sort.

[Seismic Sam]

You have a malfunction of some sort, no doubt about it!! There are NO published loads in ANY manual I have with a 230 grain bullet going LESS than 500 FPS!! Is that a new container of Bullseye, or did you get it from somebody??

Also. be aware that at last one of the Alliant online manuals lists MAX loads only, and that has already sucked in a variety of n00bs who didn't read the fine print.

[MarkL]

The Bullseye was purchased about 2 months ago at Gander Mountain, its a 1lb plastic bottle. The only markings on it that resemble possibly a lot # are CE0519 68Z032513. Could that be packaged on March 25, 2013?

Well, all I can do at this point is go try it again on Saturday. Not a member at any gun club where I can setup the chrono, so it will have to be this weekend.
I can believe the chrono for some reason reading slow, but as for the ammo, every charge was weighed and again this time, so with new brass, Win Large Pistol Primers, weighed charge, bullet seated to 1.260 - 1.265, taper crimped enough to pass the case gauge test, what could I possibly have screwed up on the ammo?

So I will setup, fire factory 45 rounds and compare against their specs, adjust, troubleshoot and retest if necessary.
Shoot the 10 rounds with 4.5gr and note the fps and then the 10 rounds I have with 4.8gr.
I'll spend some time getting more familiar with the M2 keypad and manipulating it.

[sgruenhagen44]

EXCELLENT n00b post!! I wish there were more like you...

44 mag was even more confusing, with jacketed bullets being sold that were .429" and .430". Bottom line, when you put either on top of 24.0 grains of H110, that .001" isn't going to make diddly squat worth of difference once the pressure starts to build. For a second when I was reading your post I thought maybe you had bought bullets for the 45 Long Colt, which DOES have a different diameter of .454" - .455", but you didn't.

Just to give you an idea of what difference .001" of bullet diameter does make, I conducted a rather unique experiment of testing .355" (9mm) .356" (38 Super), and .357" (357 Mag) in the same gun, which was an EAA 38 Super Match, and it should be noted that this gun has POLYGONAL rifling. The results with standard rifling could be different. Did the same 3 strings of 5 shots each at 10 powder weights .1 grain apart (and individually weighed!!) from 6.5 to 7.4 grains of Power Pistol, The 9mm and 357 bullets (and you should NEVER interchange or confuse these two!!) were 125 grain Gold Dots, while the 38 Super was a 130 grain FMJ flat point. As you can see from the data, nothing catastrophic happens as you go from .355" to .357". The .356" data could be lower due to bullet weight or construction, and obviously the velocity and pressure go up a bit as you go from .355" to .357". If the top of this powder range were balls-to-the-wall max then you could see something disastrous happening, which is why I chose this range. All of this is a bit advanced for your question, but I thought I might as well post this here because you'll never see this test in any manual or reloading source I've ever seen. As long as you continue to exercise the current level of caution and ask questions first that are well thought out and stated, you'll always do fine.



Oh - one other thing, seeing as plated bullets all pretty much say to use cast bullet data: The best source for jacketed and cast bullet data is the Lyman PISTOL manual, not to be confused with Lyman #49 manual!!

I only come out from under my bridge when we get a n00b in here who says he's bought EVERYTHING and is set up and ready to go, and just needs data for the 40 S&W, which means he was too cheap to buy at least one manual and/or too lazy to read it. Then I have to crawl out from under my bridge and read that n00b the riot act. This always draws a crowd, who enjoy the spectacle, which is similar to the Roman Gladitorial games...

Haha this post makes me laugh just because I asked a similar question regarding brass length and trimming. Sam tore me a new you know what. Maybe sam is getting soft in his old age! RTFM!!!

[Seismic Sam]

Having a chrono read slow for one velocity and right for another is pretty much a flat out IMPOSSIBILITY. You have a fixed length for the 2 screens (normally 2 feet) and the shadow of the bullet starts the timer going with the first screen and the 2nd shadow stops the timer x milliseconds later, and the very simple math is done in the processor. I was testing some 50GI loads with experimental powder levels, and I wasn't about to risk my $3K 50GI to do this, so I used cut up moon clips ground down to 22 mils thick, and was shooting my 50GI loads in my 500 Smith. My first "plain old" loads that run 880 FPS in my 50GI came out of the Smith 500 at about 350 FPS, according to my Millenium 1. You could hear the shot, and then the THUD! of that 50 cal. bullet hitting the backstop a few tenths of a second later. The drop in speed was due to that poor bullet rattling down a full 2 inches of cylinder, jumping the gap to the forcing cone, and then using whatever pressure was left to make its way down the barrel. And why would a chrono be inaccurate at the LOW end, with a great big bullet going slow? If that chrono is capable of picking up a 40 grain .224" bullet doing 4500 FPS out of a hot 220 Swift, how could it miss a big 45 going 500 FPS??

You got a 45ACP load problem of some sort. Like I said, no manual out there lists a velocity THAT low, and 4.5 grains of Bullseye is plenty to get a 230 grain bullet going a normal velocity.

[MarkL]

Apparently even my Factory loads aren't loaded correctly:

String 1
1) 319.4 -56.7
2) 340.1 -36.0
3) 360.8 -15.3
4) 412.7 36.6
5) 447.4 71.3

High: 447.4
Low: 319.4
E.S.: 128.0
Ave.: 376.1
S.D.: 47.3
95%: ±73.3

String 2
1) 397.6 -42.2
2) 427.0 -12.8
3) 429.1 -10.7
4) 505.3 65.5

High: 505.3
Low: 397.6
E.S.: 107.7
Ave.: 439.8
S.D.: 39.8
95%: ±84.5

String 3
1) 297.6 0.0

High: 297.6
Low: 297.6
E.S.: 0.0
Ave.: 297.6
S.D.: 0.0
95%: ±84.5

(End Of Data)

I went out to the range, setup the unit, double checked everything plugged in correctly and working. Moved the unit from 6' - 15' in front of the barrel, no difference, kept getting a Error E1 or just plain error. All rounds today were using factory ammo. Unable to make this work, using the infrared screens, in a covered area, only flourescents are over the shooters, nothing out where the sensors are. Was a nice day, not humid, so not sure why this is screwing up and couldn't achieve an accurate reading. The readings are the last 3 groups I recorded. Reset the unit along with other positional things I tried. Probably a piece of sh0t like most things you buy now days.

[MarkL]

So I've spent most of the day trying to analyze what's wrong with this unit and I believe I have it down to a bad sensor.
I stumbled on a issue with the one sensor if I tap the top of the sky screen it will on it's own induce a E0 or E1 error. I've swapped sky screens and sensor ends with the problem staying with the suspected sensor. It doesn't take much of a tap to induce the error, also a tap on the sky screen of the other sensor does not produce the error. So the percussion of mine or another weapon within the enclosed area of the range could cause this to generate the error in my opinion. I shook and wiggled the crap of the unit like in some really bad muzzle blast which shouldn't be a problem at 10ft with my 45 and no errors produced, but again a slight rap on the screen or the sensor itself induces an error.


** Update **
I had submitted the information about my M2 where purchased, conditions observed, corrective actions attempted and string data to CED. I received a phone call from Charles Hardy the CEO himself about 30 minutes later to my surprise. He agreed with the fact that since I had the Infrared sky screens, that with the velocities pretty much at half value that one of the sensors is bad and most likely the one I can induce an error by tapping on it. It was good to hear that he felt I had done my due diligence to rule out all the possibilities that it was operator setup error etc. He is also very interested in this particular issue to see if it resolves it as it would typically be consistent with muzzle blast, but this is not a factor in this case. So they are sending out a replacement sensor today and I can give it another go this Saturday again and see if the issue is resolved. Had a nice chat with him about a couple of things, I believe we will get to the bottom of it with time, but hopefully this weekend with a new sensor.